Lion build AC calculations and comparisons

[Oreyn]

One thing that really annoys me is when people say that 1144 lions are much weaker than the other builds; this is a load of crap, and I shall prove it.

For the sake of my explanation, I need to get something out of the way before I start. As we all know, We gain one point of AC for every 4 "stat levels" that we place in it (*BEFORE LEVEL 401); we get 1 stat level automatically for the bonus points we pump into it, but then our base power determines how many points are placed into it naturally. If we have a 4 in Power, we get 4 "stat units"; 3 in power gives 3 stat units, 2 gives 2, and 1 gives 1. Four of these stat units gives us one stat level. In numbers, it'll look something like this: (1 stat unit = .25, 1 stat level = 4, bolded number = level when 1 AC is gained) [think of the .25 as 1 bonus point if you aren't follong me yet]

1144: 1.25, 2.5, 3.75, 5, 6.25, 7.5, 8.75, 10, 11.25, 12.5, 13.75, 15, 16.25, 17.5, 18.75, 20
2143: 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6, 7.5, 9, 10.5, 12
3142: 1.75, 3.5, 5.25, 7, 8.75, 10.5, 12.25, 14, 15.75, 17.5, 19.25, 21, 22.75, 24.5, 26.25, 28
4141: 2, 4

What that messed up chart is trying to show is the interval each build goes through where there are inconsistent AC gains and when they loop. They'll go through a certain chain of AC gains in a consistent order and will always loop and keep moving along that order. The chart below will tell you what level you get your AC gains at, and will stop when it loops:

1144: 1 AC after 4 levels, 1 AC after 3 levels (4 times)
2143: 1 AC after 3 levels (2 times), 1 AC after 2 levels
3142: 1 AC after 3 levels, 1 AC after 2 levels (2 times), 1 AC after 3 levels, 1 AC after 2 levels (3 times)
4141: 1 AC after 2 levels

Basically, 4141 will always get 1 AC every 2 levels, and 2143 will get 1 AC every 3 levels twice in a row, then 1 AC after two levels; it then repeats that. Now that you've listened to my garbled mess of an explanation, you're wondering what this actually means. It means... I need to set up another chart for you guys. >_>
This chart will show you the AC gains and at which levels they occur, starting at 1 and ending at 17. We begin with a base of 50 AC.

Lv.....1144.....2143......3142.....4141
1........50........50........50........50
2........50........50........50........50
3........50........50........50........51
4........50........51........51........51
5........51........51........51........52
6........51........51........52........52
7........51........52........52........53
8........52........52........53........53
9........52........53........53........54
10.......52........53........53........54
11.......53........53........54........55
12.......53........54........54........55
13.......53........54........55........56
14.......54........54........55........56
15.......54........55........56........57
16.......54........55........56........57
17.......55........56........57........58

Oh, and if you want the functions for finding out the base AC for a certain level...
1144: 50 + (x/3.2)
2143: 50 + (x/2.67)
3142: 50 + (x/2.29)
4141: 50 + (x/2)
Where x is the level you want to find your AC for. If you're a level 232 3142, you'll have 151 base AC. Always round down, and this is only effective to 401, like I said before.

Anways, you can walk along that chart and it'll show your AC up until 401. Every build will loop at the same time after 16 levels, and this is how we compare the gains.
1144: 5 points every 16 levels
2143: 6 points every 16 levels
3142: 7 points every 16 levels
4141: 8 points every 16 levels

4141 gains AC 1.6 times faster than 1144; 3142 gains AC 1.4 times faster than 1144, and 2143 gains AC 1.2 times faster than 1144. Now, you're probably thinking "This just proves our point; 1144 lions should go fall on a rusty nail LOL", but that's isn't so. While a 3142 gains AC 1.4 more quickly than a 1144, that doesn't necissarily mean 1.4 times the damage; it only means that a number 1.4 times larger is being added into the damage calculation. I can't find the gun damage formula, so I can't tell you exactly how it works, but I've seen it around here, and I'm pretty sure that it works that way.

So... In comparison to a 1144, a 3142 gets 1.4x the AC for a sacrifice of 1/2 of his defensive stats (and it's probably less than 1.4x the total damage, too). That's quite a treat to know. <end massive rant>

Well, I'm done. Hopefully someone can find that gun formula and we can get some live comparisons flying around. I'm tired, lacking sleep and I didn't extensively test everything out, so I apologize for any typos or errors hanging around. There's probably been a topic like this on here in the past, but I guess you guys will have to make due with this.

*goes to sleep*

(If you can't understand any of this, go to school for a few years and then come back.)

EDIT: I fixed a glaring mass of mistakes on one of my charts. Also, these are obviously assuming that you're a Pure AC Lion; I guess I should have put that in earlier, but it'll do fine here because it's not too important.

[Nijay]

From the loverly jWiki:

Gun attack power = (on-target hit ratio - 48) the additional attack power of classified by ×20+ gun TYPE

* Therefore, from the power gun do the growth synthesis of on-target hit in the [shiyurudo] gun or the custom master gun those which
There are times when gun attack power is high.
(Concerning on-target hit 1, attack power +20 please think)

@ lvl 100, all into AC:
1144 = 495 pts = 30AC + 50 base = 80 AC = 640 base dmg
2143 = 594 pts = 37AC + 50 base = 87 AC = 780 base dmg
3142 = 693 pts = 43AC + 50 base = 93 AC = 900 base dmg
4141 = 792 pts = 49AC + 50 base = 99 AC = 1020 base dmg

[Oreyn]

Yep, those numbers prove that 3142 does indeed do exactly 1.4x the damage 1144 does. Thanks for the formula, as well.

[Emouse]

1.4x base damage is somewhat significant (especially when then also applied to Power Shot's multiplier), but there's another very pointed question to ask about statistics:

What about equipment?

The 1.4x base AC rather pales in comparison to the AC/Gun AP gains from equipment, especially for great Masters at higher levels. These equipment bonuses don't rely at all on your base AC, and if a natural 2 in charm would make surviving require replacing an AC equipment with HP/DP/etc gear, the advantage is almost entirely lost. The only real advantage of a 3142 build (or similar) is when that extra 0.2x/0.4x/whatever is actually enough to let you gun down an enemy in less shots. Against bosses this is less significant, since you also need to stay alive against them, so...

Blah. In simplier terms, I agree with your analysis, I just wanted to point out a counterargument and then a... counter-counterargument to help complete the discussion.

[StudyPunkRockism]

This probably has nothing to do with the AC calculations, but what happens at level 401?

[blastedcleric]

this is not so accurate, that's all i can say...

simply put, u gain 1 AC for every 16 bonus points u put into AC

so, if ur a 4141, it becomes 1~4+4, 2~4+4 <every 2 levels gives u 1 AC=20damage>

if ur a 3142, it becomes 1~3+4, 2~3+4, 3~3+4, <every 3 levels gives u 1 AC w/ remainder of 5 which accumulates....until u get another AC, etc..>

if ur a 2143, it becomes 1~2+4, 2~ 2+4, 3~ 2+4, <every 3 gives u 1 AC w/ remainder of 2>

if ur a 1144, it becomes 1~1+4, 2~ 1+4, 3~1+4, 4~1+4 <every 4 levels gives u 1 AC w/ remainder of 4>

so at lower levels it may be not so clear, the difference between the 4 builds <w/exception to 4141 against 1144, but when it goes to higher levels, let's say around 130+, the gap between all the builds drastically change, at around 100, the bonus points added to 1144~ 80+-, 2143~90+-, 3142~100+-, 4141~110+-, and when in degrees of actuality, multiplied by 20, this is a big damage, giving the edge over pvp's, gvg's, and prolly boss hunts,... but, the advantage 1144 has over 4141 as we all know is DP/HV/HP, which is as we all know again very well welcomed in every build... so, there, its something like that... Good Luck and have fun

[terrorblade]

juz my opinion... i think 2143 is a better build than 1144 coz you juz lose 1/4 of the charm of 1144 and a little increase on AC would be a big difference in offense later on becoz of the lion skills that are % based.


P.S. I accept a graph reset donation XD. I'm a 1144 lion and not full AC T.T

EDIT: i think im juz gonna stay 1144

[Oreyn]

At 401, you need to put 5 levels into AC (20 points) to level it up instead of 4. In other words, it just takes a little longer for us to gain AC at that point, and I don't feel like making extra calculations when I know nobody's ever going to get to 401. Well, not for a long time, anyways... >_>

That's what I was told, at least. I'm obviously not at 401 (or even close), so I don't know by my own experience.

[acer]

come to think of it, if you have a 1144 build, and still stack up insane +DP and +HP equips, you'll be the hardest lion to take down, considering your attacks sting hard.

so i guess a 1144 can be a semi-tank at that. you wont punch hard like the other builds and you are without the leisure of charm type skills, but you'll be quite an annoying semi-tank, since no class can ignore some tank-like lion blasting away in GvG or PvP. i think that's a good advantage the 1144 has amongst the other lion builds, the capability to take in more damage than usual.

[StudyPunkRockism]

You still lack a shield, a vital equipment that adds more HP or DP.

[muuchan]

I'm confuse guys........ AC determines the power of a Gun is that right?? what build is important in lion w/ gun...

[Rtothef]

muuchan - all builds:

(all builds=all bonus points to ac)
1144 is the most defensive build
2143 is more defensive then offensive (sorta balanced)
3142 is more offensive then defensive (sorta balanced)
4114 is pure offense, with minimal defence


in comparison:

(in terms of Base AC, not equips)
1144 deals the least damage, yet that isn't really that bad at all
2143 deals the 2nd least damage, yet is still very strong.
3142 deals the 2nd best damage, yet with 2 in charm- low hp means lower survival
4114 deals the most damage, yet with a 1 in charm - survival is hard without godly HP equips

[Dante]

Words of the experienced: Don't get 3142, go for 1144 or 2143.

[galil11]

i'm confused.. i havent started yet but i cant pick from a 1144 or the 2143 build

[Rikumaru]

like when you first create a lion there should be stats where u can toggle each from 1-4 excluding sense

so 1144 would be 1 attack 1 magic 4 sense and 4 charm
while 2143 is 2 attack 1 magic 4 sense and 3 charm

[davidzeng033]

At high levels if you're 4141 or 3142 just get lk equips for GvG or PvP....Don't even bother getting hp cuz you're still gonna get 1hko'd by other ppl...well, if you don't kill them first that is...