Stone Strike and Shuriken Mastery mysteries revealed!

[BrTarolg]

dude stop flaming.

ive found it that i can just about, without wasting damage, kill a monster higher levelled than me with two hits of stone stike. i intend to keep it that way, and i havnt found any problems yet, and have planned it so i wont in the future either.

ok? im not going to run around posting guides to lifting buckets of water or stuff about morons idiots and horse eyes so.... w/e.

but really, once you hit second, job, i dont really see THAT much use in stone strike anymore so who knows.

[Mittchi]

After reading the first post, I must say that it's really much easier to use simple formulas. (yes these are true, stop asking me)

SS/AA adds a flat 46 damage per extra perception you have when mastered, plus the 46 initial damage when used with 0 perception.

ST/AT adds a flat 33 damage per extra perception you have when mastered plus initial damage from the item thrown.

The hit rate of both skills is NOT affected by perception(DA) or accuracy(AC).

ST/AT have about 2x the base hit rate than what the SS/AA have. That's why it's hitting much more often. (SS/AA 72 base, ST,AT 39.5 base. The lower base number the higher hit rate.)

[slayn777]

so do you know what the hell those numbers mean?

I've seen the 72 + 2.5 * evasion/39.5 + 2.5 * evasion equations before, but I can not make sense of that at all.

why would a lower number be better? It can't possibly simply be the miss rate, because then SS would never, ever hit. Explain please.

Also, the damage calculation for AT is a bit more complicated once you add in the second skill multipler, plus don't forget that the DA multipier is applied to the weapon as well.

edit:

bah I f'ed up the equation, I got it reversed. Don't mind me, lalala, nothing to see here.

[3daytrial]

ahhhhhh happy place!! XD

[xgoicuonx]

Agh.. this is all confusing me.. im a lvl 38 fox.. 1243 guide.. and I miss not very much.. I pump all my points into DA and I have mastered Stone Strike.. and 10 sixth sense.. when I use sixth sense ( I fight Torpedoe fish) I do 1k damage..Hmmm there.. does any of this info help? o_o I miss like 1/3rd of my gameplay... and sometimes I missed 5 times in a row.. which only happened 3 times.. Well.. if you want me in gameplay for any questions.. my ign is xgoicuonx.Oh and... nice research guys.. keep it going.. Im gonna read this thread to see the conclusion everyday.. Im a bit curious myself.. to know the secret to Shuriken Mastery and Stone Strike..

~Alex

[Arvec]

Originally Posted by Mittchi

The hit rate of both skills is NOT affected by perception(DA) or accuracy(AC).

Forgive me, but I'm more inclined to believe what first-hand research has shown. Or maybe it simply means I need a larger sample? But it's unlikely the other test would have yielded results so close to each other, if that were the case.

[BrTarolg]

Originally Posted by Mittchi

After reading the first post, I must say that it's really much easier to use simple formulas. (yes these are true, stop asking me)

SS/AA adds a flat 46 damage per extra perception you have when mastered, plus the 46 initial damage when used with 0 perception.

ST/AT adds a flat 33 damage per extra perception you have when mastered plus initial damage from the item thrown.

The hit rate of both skills is NOT affected by perception(DA) or accuracy(AC).

ST/AT have about 2x the base hit rate than what the SS/AA have. That's why it's hitting much more often. (SS/AA 72 base, ST,AT 39.5 base. The lower base number the higher hit rate.)

btw - what mittchi is posting here as i have discovered, is 100% true

except for the hitrate part, im not so sure about that.

either way - the skill is basically very very carefull tailored out - stone strike and asassin throw actually have the SAME damage overall - the only modifier that makes stone strike stronger is the weapon that you are throwing. this comes in with brave throw later, which can make a significant difference.

but in fact, stone strike can still be used at high levels - its the equivelant of doing asassins throw when using a 0 damage throwing item.

also another interesting thing is that the formulas are true - damage for SS = (perception+1)*46, and damage for AT = perception*33

with brave throw mastered the damage is perception*33+(shuriekn damage*7.92)

it doesnt actually change the base damage at all, it just multiplies the effect of the shuriken.

whilst 7.92 seems alot, it is in fact only significantly larger if you wish to spend a hefty amount on expensive throwing items.

all interesting nevertheless.

[Mittchi]

Well it's because AFAIK, fox attack skills are really SCREWED UP.

The game seems to recognize the attak type as a "magic attack skill" (and is thous using luck as %hitrate modifier) and ignores any elemental endowments your weapon has, but the damage type dealt by the attack is physical.

That means that AA/AT foxes will suck vs 3 of the bosses and alot of the stronger monsters due to the fact that they can't do anything to make up for the huge damage losses from crappy monster physical damage modifiers.

AT will usually do lower damage than the AA, adventurer dmg buff skill won't help much due to flat rate of increase based on item thrown and not on perception. (it will end like geldar throw, not that usefull vs later monsters) You can pretty much to expect that you'l be using large needles most of the time when leveling as AT.

I use both AA and AT because you can spam both after each other for more DPS and I'm using about 350+ needles per 80-90 mins. You can pretty much expect that you won't be able to get any better items for throwing unless they are sold by the npcs and only needles are being sold.

Someone mentioned about "upgraded" throwing items. Well you just compound(as in real compounding, not mature compound) an thowing item with something else, and you'l get a slight boost. Not that this "other item" used for most of the thowing ammo can only be dug up wich means that it can't be obtained in excessive amounts anyways. (not enough for leveling with them)

/edit : As for evasion and skill hitrates, you can't really calculate out since it's based on monster evasion and noone knows those values anyways

[slayn777]

The AT mod is also multiplied by the weapon. Did no one see my chart on the previous page?

AT damage, assuming all skills mastered, is:

33*(DA + AP/10*2.4) - 1

where AP is the power of the weapon. Stone Strike will generally always keep pace with AT, even with the weapon multiplier, but its once you consider SS's accuracy to be about 70% that AT starts to look better and better. Consider further, that AT is a ranged attack whose range increases with each level in the skill, and you also have a much safer attack.


edit:

ah, nevermind, I see that you simply distributed the 33 into the equation.

Although, another thing to point out is that no fox will be using raw DA. They'll be using sixth senze. And so *really*

SS is 1.45*46*DA = 66.7 damage per DA point while AT is

33*1.45 = 47.85 damage per DA point and 11.484 damage per weapon AP.


further, if you take a glance at my previous chart, AT still does equals damage of SA if you consider accuracy. Even with a big needle. Consider the extreme, where you have 180DA and are using a big needle. Randomly assume SA has 70% accuracy, and AT has 95% accuracy.

8280*.7 = 5796
6005*.95 = 5792

but also according to the wiki, you will be able to buy bone needles which have an AP of 60. And with those, AT wins

edit2:

an even simpler way to think about it if you assume 70/98 accuracy.

SS is worth 66.7*.7 = 46.69 *real* damage per DA
AT is worth 47.85*.98 = 46.893 *real* damage per DA

and so, with mastered sixth sense, AT just barely wins in damage growth, randomly assuming a 70/98 accuracy comparison.

[Mittchi]

Alllright, it's been proven that element does'nt apply into any of the attack skills. Ignore whatever from my earlier post.

Also, when I said about AT getting no "major" boost, then I mean no boost in damage percentage or boost in damage done per DA. The rest are only boost in fixed values or limited to item thrown, wich does'nt really make much difference later as you progress in the game.

[BrTarolg]

tbh, from after reading all this, i reckon that the game devs were smart enough to make it so that the skill are actually <cough> balanced.

so yeah, maybe they are just both as good as each other.

[oryx]

having done some testing with damage increases over various DA's, I've found an odd result... for merrows. ghost pirates, and siremaids, 1 DA =/= 33 damage. In fact, over 15 tests (not a lot, but we're talking about a linear damage formula here >.>), in every case except for one the damage was increased by 30 for each DA added, and decreased by a simliar amount for each DA subtracted. I wasn't using sixth sense. I was using large needles.

my base DA is 31, and I started out with +15. I tested ranges from 31+10-31+15, and the incidence of the damage rising by 31 was on a merrow, when I went from 31+12 DA to 31+13 DA

anyone want to take a stab at why it didnt' raise by 33?

[Mittchi]

Due to the physical damage magnification ratio. There's "effective defence" that's substracted from youre damage, and there's magnification ratio that multipies with your damage.

Unless the ratio is 100% you won't get exactly 33 damage difference between each DA while doing AT. ( >100 adds damage, <100 reduces)

[mikio]

Originally Posted by Arvec

Forgive me, but I'm more inclined to believe what first-hand research has shown. Or maybe it simply means I need a larger sample? But it's unlikely the other test would have yielded results so close to each other, if that were the case.

I agree with Mittchi, that both do not contribute to hit rate (as for now).

The difference your sample showed might be attributed to random variance/standard deviation, which might be attributed from your sample size (a set of similar 200 set of samples might net you different result). One way to measure this is using the Chi-square methods (a way to determine if variance is due to randomness or if it's significant enough to note that it's due to changes in variable(s)). Due to the scale of the experiment, it probably necessary to calculate that, if certain variables are manipulated in such way that you can produce wide enough deviation (the hypothesis).

However, your research methodology seems to be correct, and you are also aware about how sampling size affects the outcome. One suggesstion will be to conduct the experiment having much higher AC and Luck (maybe using lucky-7 and gunner built lion as test subject; assuming increase luck due to lucky-7 and equipment affects net-luck used in calculation, and there isn't different hardcode written between fox and lion SS hit rate formula). The higher you can have those, the smaller # of sample you need to produce 'laboratory result'.

In all honesty, that was one helluva job you've done. Took a lot of time,effort and drives to manage something like this, kudos to you. You also stated that you have plans in the future to carry on the research. Looking forward to seeing the result.

@slayn777
-"SS is 1.45*46*DA = 66.7 damage per DA point..."

The danger about lumping the number into 66.7 is that Inspiration is based on BASE DA from natural stat growth plus bonus points spent only, any other bonuses outside those are not included in % calculation. So, even though the difference is very small, it will further deviate from the correct value as your equipment bonuses and your levels increases.

-"33*(DA + AP/10*2.4) - 1"

The formula based on Jpn Wiki did not mention about 2.4 multiplication anywhere. I might be wrong on this and missed it though.

-For comparison sake, you can use 66.7, however, you need to keep in mind that the number will be different/significantly off, as your level gets higher. Nice comparison nonetheless :)

I think, SS and AT should be seen as complementing skills instead of "one substituting the other". Each has unique qualities where/when/how they are best used, not forgetting other factors such as costs/projectile availability, etc.

@Mittchy

- As for now, we do not know if SS/AT are considered magic/physical type of attack. Even if we disregard that, there is something interesting to note.

Monsters with 1) "protection to magic", 2) "protection to Gun", 3) "weakness to Magic", have their corresponding Magic/P./gun Def on Monster stats/date follows their strengths/weaknesses. In this case 1) more mag def than P. and gun Def, 2) more Gun def than P. and/or Magic, 3) noticable reduction on Mag. def vs. other defs. So monster stats may actually already factor in those, and "protection/weakness" simply tells us arbitrarily the monsters def distribution, but, not lend to modification/multiplication on their corresponding defenses. Small scale experiment may validate this (or show otherwise).

- There are about 3-4 types of projectiles in game found through digging currently, more if the ones compounded included. Most of players just NPC these (i have like 200 or so each kind, but for sure, gone in 1 or 2 or hour or so if used) or sell at ourageous prices (thinking they are "rare" *chuckles* @ all those price check threads). So, yeah they are hard to get as for now. We will have to use the needles for mass normal leveling.

- I cannot find any reference about "effective defence" and the ratio, is there a link somewhere mentioning about this? It will be great to know since it might explains other things we are confused about.

@ oryx

- The number 33 is actually from 4.95*20/3. We do not know if it's truncated or rounded, the multiplier itself and/or the actual damage dealt. So, it might be one possible explanation why you find 31 ~ 33 figures. I'm not firm sure about this either since i have no source to back this up.

@ BrTarolg

your problem is, a chicken is slaughtered and cooked IN FRONT of your eyes, you eat the dish and still say it's beef meat.
If thousands metaphorphs and finally, explicit examples still do not open your eyes, get yourself some help. Self improvement is your own-darn job, not other peoples'.

We are having discussion to pursue knowledge and truth, not to find things out of thin air to justify your/my preference. I'm not flaming you, i'm stating fact, and heaven forbids i -explicitely (since your slow head has difficulty comprehending any other)- say why i said such. Was it not you who began with ffs wtf whatever?

Until you learn to absorb AND PROCESS information, rid of dillusion and learn how to separate wild speculation & facts (not going to bother link every ridiculous post and fallacy by you throught out this forum), and differentiate between preference and at-least concrete/semi-logical evidence... get the *beep* away from me. I said what i had to say, not going to bother replying you again.

[BrTarolg]

your problem is, a chicken is slaughtered and cooked IN FRONT of your eyes, you eat the dish and still say it's beef meat.
If thousands metaphorphs and finally, explicit examples still do not open your eyes, get yourself some help. Self improvement is your own-darn job, not other peoples'.

We are having discussion to pursue knowledge and truth, not to find things out of thin air to justify your/my preference. I'm not flaming you, i'm stating fact, and heaven forbids i -explicitely (since your slow head has difficulty comprehending any other)- say why i said such. Was it not you who began with ffs wtf whatever?

Until you learn to absorb AND PROCESS information, rid of dillusion and learn how to separate wild speculation & facts (not going to bother link every ridiculous post and fallacy by you throught out this forum), and differentiate between preference and at-least concrete/semi-logical evidence... get the *beep* away from me. I said what i had to say, not going to bother replying you again.

which part of "stfu" did you not understand?
please, stop trying to be a smartass, and shut up.

----

on a note: monsters weak to physical are weak to SS. i dont know why >_> they just are.
either way just as long as there IS a weakness i dont see a big problem in it as it doesnt give any of the other classes some massive advantage or anything.

[slayn777]

Originally Posted by mikio

@slayn777
-"SS is 1.45*46*DA = 66.7 damage per DA point..."

The danger about lumping the number into 66.7 is that Inspiration is based on BASE DA from natural stat growth plus bonus points spent only, any other bonuses outside those are not included in % calculation. So, even though the difference is very small, it will further deviate from the correct value as your equipment bonuses and your levels increases.

...no? Sixth Sense adds based on your equipment values as well. Say your DA is 50+50 without sixth sense on. You use it, now your DA will be 50+95. Try it. Most buff's in this game include your total stat, not base stat, in their calculation.

Originally Posted by mikio

-"33*(DA + AP/10*2.4) - 1"

The formula based on Jpn Wiki did not mention about 2.4 multiplication anywhere. I might be wrong on this and missed it though.

The 2.4 comes from brave throw, a 2nd job skill that enhances the weapon damage of throwing. First job there is no 2.4.

[mikio]

Originally Posted by slayn777

...no? Sixth Sense adds based on your equipment values as well. Say your DA is 50+50 without sixth sense on. You use it, now your DA will be 50+95. Try it. Most buff's in this game include your total stat, not base stat, in their calculation.



The 2.4 comes from brave throw, a 2nd job skill that enhances the weapon damage of throwing. First job there is no 2.4.

The formula for Brave Throw is = (DA)(33)+(projectile atk)(7.92) {at mastery}

Not sure why you would compare 2nd job skill with 1st job skill though. Isn't comparision between both AT & AA more meaningful prior to 2nd job release and reaching TM5x, if you are to simply compare damage figure. Fox will have some kind of AOE with splash damage, so probably upon reaching job2 you will have different set of skills you will put in your combo. But, i guess it's fine if you see it as you will get the next attack skill at much higher TM requirement.

Going to double check Inspiration & Lucky-7 calculation again. When i checked the last by removing and equiping my def/DA/Luck gears, the increase remains constant, not even a point difference, while having 10+ difference in DA/Luck at 45% boost.

http://mytrickster.net/forum/sense-t...-accuracy.html stick on this topic donkey :) It's about right your level. Not trying to be a smartass, you already beat me into becomming one. You can have the crown :)

[slayn777]

Originally Posted by mikio

The formula for Brave Throw is = (DA)(33)+(projectile atk)(7.92) {at mastery}

Not sure why you would compare 2nd job skill with 1st job skill though. Isn't comparision between both AT & AA more meaningful prior to 2nd job release and reaching TM5x, if you are to simply compare damage figure. Fox will have some kind of AOE with splash damage, so probably upon reaching job2 you will have different set of skills you will put in your combo. But, i guess it's fine if you see it as you will get the next attack skill at much higher TM requirement.

Going to double check Inspiration & Lucky-7 calculation again. When i checked the last by removing and equiping my def/DA/Luck gears, the increase remains constant, not even a point difference, while having 10+ difference in DA/Luck at 45% boost.

http://mytrickster.net/forum/sense-t...-accuracy.html stick on this topic donkey :) It's about right your level. Not trying to be a smartass, you already beat me into becomming one. You can have the crown :)

2.4*33/10 = 7.92, same thing =P

I compare it, because I am of the belief that in 2nd job, AT will still be the best. The AoE has a 10 second cooldown and so, even if used, will not be your primary attack. Fearbag comes late, is awkward to use since you have to keep yourself near burdened, and even then has a longer cooldown. In strict damage per second, I think AT is tied for best first job, and is the best 2nd job.

All second job stuff is purely speculation, of course.

[BrTarolg]

well it depends-

are there any stronger throwing items for brave throw that you can get from NPC? <or at least, compound from NPC items> - if so then it could turn out brave throw being stronger than SS - because of its range and accuracy.

but who knows. level to 60, and then wait it out till the second job comes out.

edit:

oh btw chances are - youll get both AT and SS anyway. i mean, its an extra skill to spam,and youll have plenty of points to spend around <i doubt people will get fearbag because you need large pocket and a massive wieght burden which isnt helpful unless you make a pure WT fox.. which would be incredibly insane as it would destroy eveyrone but.. gl with that :P - i suppose with SS or AT and a good guild it would be possible to make a pure WT fox with using SS/SM to lvl up, and remember SM doesnt really miss so you can have a high level tank, and then whittle away with SM>