Pure Luck Fox vs Pure Luck Lion

fieryshadowcard · 13 Sep 2006

For awhile now, I wasn't exactly sure how to properly do the formulas for fortune hit (Lucky Strike) or Detonator, nor was I very aware of things such as cooldown or outside skills that affect these two. In the end, I saw some very fascinating results. What I will now attempt to do is compare the damage of Detonator to the damage of Lucky Strike. Both will have default luck at 100, and Lucky 7 will be factored in for both, but Lucky Day will only be factored in for the fox, as it is their personal buff (a lion will not always be in a party, so Lucky Day is an external factor to their individual strength). For the latter sense type, I will be using both a low hp and high hp monster for examples and; for the former, I am going to factor in the caster's DA, setting it at 50 (half of the growth of a pure luck build). Both will be assumed to be as naked as the day they were born (ie. no equips involved), and Lucky Strike will be assumed to be a melee skill, not a gun skill.

First, I'm going to borrow my damage conclusion from the pure luck fox (PLF) vs pure DA fox (PDF) post I made in another thread:

1.45= Mastered Lucky 7 buff for LK, Mastered Sixth Sense for DA
1.18= Mastered Lucky Day buff for LK
Formulaic value= Number that Mastered Detonator will use to determine damage.
(Formulaic value*magnification ratio; magnification ratio at mastered is 48.8)

PLF LK (100*1.45*1.18=171.1---->rounded down to 171 LK) + PLF DA (50*1.45= 72.5----->rounded down to 72)= 243 formulaic value.
PLF Detonator Damage= 11858.4-------> rounded down to 11858
**PLF Detonator Crit Damage= 17787.6------> rounded down to 17787

Secondly, I'm going to borrow my damage conclusion from a pure luck lion thread on another site:

Lucky Strike Default Damage= Target's Max HP/10
Lucky Strike Damage Influenced by Luck= Luck*8*Lucky 7 (1.45)
Lucky Strike Formulaic Value = Default Damage + Luck-Influenced Damage
(Formulaic Value*magnification ratio; magnification ratio at mastered is 3.8, or 380%)

High HP Monster Example:
HP= 100,000
Lucky Strike Default Damage= 10,000
Lucky Strike Damage Influenced by Luck= 1160
Lucky Strike Final Damage Before Outside Reductions= 42408

*Monster Whose HP Damage and Luck Damage Are the Same:
HP=11600
Lucky Strike Default Damage= 1160
Lucky Strike Damage Influenced by Luck= 1160
Lucky Strike Final Damage Before Outside Reductions=8816

Low HP Monster Example:
HP= 5000
Lucky Strike Default Damage= 500
Lucky Strike Damage Influenced by Luck= 1160
Lucky Strike Final Damage Before Outside Reductions= 6308

A pure luck lion is clearly the indisputable anti-charm character, becoming insanely powerful as the opponent's max hp increases, but having just enough oomph from luck if the opponent's max hp is extremely low. So, though the damage is laughable on low-hp opponents, it's more than enough to kill them, but for an mp cost that might only make the skill feel worthwhile against higher hp opponents. Mid-hp opponents will most likely shrug off advances from lucky strike, even though the damage will be moderate; it becomes a routine-damage skill on these types of opponents.

A pure luck fox overkills low hp monsters, and dominates mid-hp monsters, but falls short on high hp monsters, making the cost outweigh the gain; however, their damage remains consistent, and does not rely on external factors to be lethal.

Pure luck lion does not have the AC of his pure AC brother, but he has the exact same AC of a pure luck fox (and slightly more than that because of the gun he is carrying). Gun Booster is naturally a part of his build, so his Lucky Strike will be dead-on, and crit often. The problem? His gun skills will probably suffer, because he will most likely be a 1144 lion. But, he will be ridiculously accurate, and he will crit often. The skills he will still have moderate damage on, however, are mastered Stone Strike (probably buffed with mastered Sixth Sense) and Shuriken Mastery.

Pure Luck Fox, however, will have multiple skills at her disposal that she can and WILL use, and though the DA skills will not be as powerful as a pure DA fox's, they will maintain 60-75% of the effectiveness based on equips alone. Brave Throw boosts Shuriken Mastery's damage. Outside of the DA skills, Fear Bag's damage will always remain the same, doing high damage based on current taken up weight. This damage will be inferior to Lucky Strike on a high hp boss, but it will still be the damage that contends with that skill.

Until 3rd Job hybrids, lions will be the heavy-hitters (but one-trick ponies), whereas foxes will do more consistent damage on everything with a dazzling array of skills and debuffs.

Even after 3rd Jobs, only pure luck lions will HAVE to go hybrid. Pure luck fox does not NEED Lucky Strike, but pure luck lion will probably want all the other skills at their disposal. Why does pure luck fox not need to go hybrid? DA-based damage is still fairly moderate, and there's a 3rd Job Advanced skill that helps speed up Detonator casting and cooldown:

Originally Posted by Exilus

Foxes get a skill called "Land Mine Specialist" in 3rd job which reduces the cooldown of Detonator. Seems that it decreases the cooldown by a considerable amount as well.

Lucky Strike forever remains at 6-second cooldown, whereas "Land Mine Specialist" takes the 10-second cooldown of Detonator down by a ridiculous amount (if you look at the video where this is show-cased, the fox is almost spamming detonator).

3 Detonators under Land Mine Specialist will probably be equal to 1 Lucky Strike, and can probably be cast in the same amount of time.

Finally, because it seems that luck senses were meant to be melee in a reasonable capacity, lions who go hybrid will lose interest in their gun skills (except for gun booster, which a fox could have taken with them from the get-go for far less skill points and can still take with them if they haven't learned it by 3rd Job, whether they go hybrid OR advanced).

There's a lot more to think about, which is why I made this post. Everything you've ever thought about the pure luck build and the two classes that benefit from it should go here.

*Updated Information for further comparison.

Avatar · 13 Sep 2006

Uhh i dont think luck affects the frequency of gun crits so i think he will just hit way more often than a normal build.

fieryshadowcard · 13 Sep 2006

The crit aspect I was referring to was for Lucky Strike, assuming it's not a gun skill. Even then, a lion will still crit often because of timed crits on regular shots. But yeah, I should've made that clearer. Sorry.

h1mura · 13 Sep 2006

Awesome thread here, i kinda interested in building pure luck char, the question that always come in my mind is what type of ATTACK skill should pure luck fox(im taking fox for example here)take?

Anyone with experience and insight can clear this thing up?

Thanks

fieryshadowcard · 13 Sep 2006

From the look of things, it seems that Pure Luck Fox will be backed by Detonator and possibly Fear Bag for hard-hitting skills. Stone Strike and Shuriken Master won't hit as hard as Pure DA Fox, but just having fair equips allows you to maintain 60-70% of that damage, possibly even more once you get to the levels where you can learn detonator (as you will have even better equips by then; well, you should). So, since we know our normal click and attack does squat, think of SS and SM as your regular attack, and Fear Bag and Detonator as your new SS and/or SM.

Stone Strike at mastery costs 66 MP per cast.
Detonator at Mastery is 230 MP
Fear Bag at Mastery is 430 MP.

These costs seem high, but keep in mind that by the time you can use and master all these skills, your lvl will be way over 100 (Fear Bag requires TM lvl 115 to learn; Detonator needs lvl 90, as do many of your buffs and such), so your MP will probably be able to accomodate these skills and the buffs that go along with them.

Now, in the meantime, Pure Luck Fox could invest in Brave Throw, which boosts Shuriken Mastery damage as a buff, and that might make Shuriken Master your main attack until you learn Detonator.

No matter how I look at it, Pure Luck's Detonator is Pure DA's Shuriken Master/Stone Strike. Higher mana maintenance cost, but hey. If you're a Pure Lucker, you're rich. Charm Galder Throwers blow money on a skill; you can spend a bit more money on pots, especially since by then, you can afford them.

Avatar · 13 Sep 2006

I guess a pure luck build is more suitable for a fox, lions would have only one useful skill if its pure luck which is Fortune hit but the skills based on AC would be too weak to be of any use, that includes just about everything else including quick and roulette shots.

But a pure luck lion would specialise in taking down bosses and charms and he would have enough tm points to be even more adept at being anti charm with skills like sticky foot.

For pure luck foxes, they will have to toil until the 2nd job because they get half the damage capacity of pure DAs or less with the same pot usage. I dont know how pure lucks and pure DAs compare to mules though, mules are those who add into WT or a pure WT build.

Simply put, they do massive damage with fear bag but to maximise their damage, they will be open to attack because they have to walk all the time.

fieryshadowcard · 13 Sep 2006

If a Pure luck fox stayed equipped with a pure luck set, I could understand that DA damage would stay at about half. This would probably be a Pure Detonator build, ignoring everything except for Fear Bag to do high damage constantly.

However, to maintain a balance between the high cooldown times of FB and DT, it's probably wiser to have a pure DA set with some adds in luck where they are needed, so that in-between FB and DT cooldown, SS and SM can do damage.

Of course, now that I think about it, once third job hits, Pure Detonator becomes very viable because of Land Mine Specialist.

Avatar · 13 Sep 2006

I cant imagine how hybrid 3rd jobs would be, pure builds would be so not suitable for them.

h1mura · 14 Sep 2006

Awesome guys, below i'll try to lay down my build for pure luck fox, feel free to comment and voice your opinions regarding the skill build.I'm gonna leave out Fear Bag route since I'll will be focusing on Shuriken Master and Detonator build

Pure Luck Fox

First Job
Stone Strike - LVL 10
Just enough prequisite for Armor Break and Lucky Seven

Shuriken Master - Max Lvl
while tanking is not a wise option to take, this skill will be my main attack skill until 2nd job

Sixth Sense - Max Lvl
Still doubt about maxing this skill, but hey since im going pure luck route, this buff seem mandatory

Armor Break - Lvl 1
for prequisite

Lucky Seven - Max Lvl
luck buff yayyyy

Second Job
Brave Throw - Max Lvl
to boost my Shuriken Master damage

Detonator - Max Lvl
hehehe, no need to say much about this skill ^^

Third Job
Land Mine Specialist - Max Lvl
to help reduce the cooldown of detonator

As I still remain vague regarding second job skill available, all those kill i listed above will be my main guide which use Shuriken Master as main attack skill in first job and Detonator as main, Shuriken Master as secondary attack in second job

Please post your opinions and comments
*ps - please keep this thread healthy as it is now ^^

fieryshadowcard · 14 Sep 2006

I kind of like your build. I'm more of a SS fan than SM, but that leaves me indecisive about what I'll be doing from TM 50 to TM 90. Your build will hit 2nd Job running as Brave Throw comes at TM 51 or 60 (can't remember). So you have a main attack that is buffed twice (Sixth Sense and Brave Throw) and can fall back on Stone Strike as you see fit. I'd suggest that once you master Brave Throw (or before you learn it) that you still at least put some points in Heavy Carrier. Since you want to be a ranged luck fox, the extra weight will help with carrying heavier (and generally more powerful) throwing weaps in larger quantities. It also helps you with pot capacity so you live longer. Even if you don't go the route of Fear Bag, I do think you still have only things to gain with at least lvl 5 in Heavy Carrier. The fact that you won't be learning Fear Bag means that SM and pot usage hold no real detriment to your overall damage output.

You've got a pretty interesting luck skill build, here.

I wish I could be more decisive about my DA skill build, myself.

One of the problems, however, is that until you get Brave Throw, you will have a relatively weakened SM due to being pure luck and not pure DA. I'd consider mastering Stone Strike just to have two skills to alternate between (damage jump from lvl 10 SS to mastered SS is pretty big). But, if you can handle it, more power to you. I really like this build, even if it's not my particular taste.

And naturally, don't forget to pick up compound master on the way.

h1mura · 14 Sep 2006

Thanks for the opinions dude, the only reason i dont want to max SS is because the TM points lol ^^ the same reason why i will not take any skill related to Fear Bag route, and by following my route, i can learn Brave Throw straight away when i change to second job, yeah and im aware of lower DA will resulted to lower dmg for SM, but since Luck build seem to gear toward second and third job therefore i just have to endure the PAIN in levelling first job..huhu

fieryshadowcard · 14 Sep 2006

Wow, I just did the math on my Pure Luck set. If I were a Pure Luck fox, my luck with the Pure Luck set I currently have under Lucky 7 would only be 4 points inferior to me as a DA fox with a pure DA set under Sixth Sense at this level.

Current Luck Under Lucky 7 with full set: 18+ 45= 63. LK
Luck if I Were Pure Luck Instead: 37+ 53= 90 LK

Current DA under Sixth Sense with Full set= 37+ 57= 94 DA

I'm only missing 27 points from a Pure Luck fox at my lvl who had my exact same pure luck set. And that same pure luck set on a pure luck fox would only be 4 points inferior to the pure DA set on my pure DA fox.

If that same Pure Luck Fox were using my pure DA set and if they were the exact same level as me, they would get:

(18+ 28)*1.45= 66 DA

and would only be missing 28 DA overall.

So, yeah, I was right. Pure Luck Fox probably has anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 the DA of Pure DA Fox, and vice versa, with equips alone.

h1mura · 15 Sep 2006

Interesting stuff there dude, anyone have any link for 3rd job skill list? Maybe from there I can plan my build better ^^

*ps-I'm working on my pure luck fox now, currently at lvl 15, and yeah levelling is pain in the a** ^^

Exilus · 15 Sep 2006

I've been contemplating about making a pure luck character for a while.. and you guys motivated me to do so. Another thing to consider is Gloomy Mist.. all luck characters would benefit hugely from this debuff greatly. Also, according to the Jwiki (I could be wrong and the engrish is just playing tricks on me), Gloomy Mist is exactly as it says.. a mist. When you cast it, a mist emerges and anyone within it gets a decrease to Luck, Evasion, and Defence. Even if they do exit the mist, you have 2 ranged attacks to damage them as a fox and as a lion.. well, that's quite self explanitory. Sounds quite interesting to me.

Also.. a 1144 AC Lion only deals 500 more damage then a 1144 Luck Lion at level 100. I doubt SS and SM would outdamage a luck lion's gun skills considering that the damage difference between an AP and a LK lion isn't that drastic. Plus, luck lions can compensate for the lack in damage with better than usual compounded gear.

I'm still undecided as to which gender I want to play though. :/

fieryshadowcard · 16 Sep 2006

Go fox, just because luck senses crit more, and you get to crit with a purse swing.

But, yeah, I kind of didn't really factor in the AC ratio with LK like I did with DA. Sort of thought that a 1144 lion (since most pure luckers prefer defense) who wasn't pouring anything into AC wouldn't really be able to do very much damage. But those were my, I do admit, biased presumptions, since I'm not too familiar with how it feels to play a lion or the formulas for their basic attacks.

ScFreak · 17 Sep 2006

im interesting on pure luk fox also.but i dont know how to put TM point on which skill anyone have a suggestion to me? Now i'm playing pure DA fox at lvl 73 but i think pure luk fox can make more money :).I prefer SS anyone so what skill should i up coz i dont have 2nd job skill table or 3rd job skill table.Anyone who has like for those table plz leave it to me.My opinion to build skill is

SS at lvl 10
six sense master
armor break 1
lucky 7 master

any suggestion for me? i really want to play pure luk fox ><"

p.s my english skill very poor i hope all u guys understand what i mean ^ ^

h1mura · 17 Sep 2006

You might consider taking shuriken master, and yes during 1st job the dmg is measly low compare to SS but at second job there is a skill that will boost SM damage, but its ur char dude, you can decide either to stay with SS path or you can consider going for SM+Brave Throw and Detonator

Goatsekz · 17 Sep 2006

Can someone direct me to the video with the Detonator-spamming Fox?

ScFreak · 18 Sep 2006

anyone please send ma a link of 2nd job fox please.If it's possible 3rd job also.I dicided to up SM also coz i use only SS quite low dmg so i'll have 2 skill to atk.about the weight i think i'll not up carry coz high enough for fox to carry item ><" in my opinion.But when 2nd job come do we have to use SS also?.If use SS also with 2nd job i'll go master it if not neccessary i'll stop at lv10.Please leave your suggestion here.

p.s thanks for every opinion and for 2nd,3rd job skill ^ ^