Scientist or Cyber - Page 2

tomtom333555 · 25 Mar 2008

Originally Posted by CodyZzZ

I disagree with you. No offense but your statements tend to be a critical view at the pure vs hybrid theoretical debate, but not actual discussion about skills, whereas what he is asking here is specifically the path he should choose as a lion.

Unlike other classes, lions arguably are f'ed over with their pure skills. They simply suck. This has got nothing to do with whether you should stick to your pure skills or go all the way and not be half a fox...watever. Scientists simply suck right nao, I cannot stress that enough.

Many lions here can list a million reasons how the fox skills, (thus cyber hunter) can help any lion in various ways. Just to name two that most will benefit from, are aura of luck (which raises lk, important for any sense char) and icky (decreases def of enemey significantly paired with lk)

I see your point about "later" and "future", and that is why I still am a 2nd job at lvl 230. But for now those without a VERY long term plan will benefit significantly choosing cyber rather than scientist. Once again this is not "choosing the best of both worlds" or "giving up 4th". Logically and practically, cyber hunters > Scientists by far.

True, But who's to say that 3rd job will NEVER be updated and/ or balanced..?

This WAS meant for a lion specifically but it applies the same for all types,

I beleive lucky 7 is a skill that allready raises luck for lions, in 1st or 2nd job, I forget,
Decreases the def..? Pfft, HV is considered gun defence, no the actual defence stat.

The needle skills are useless, 'Cause you didn't raise DA, you rose AC or LK, ..No lion raises DA, if you did why didn't you make a fox..?

Logically Hybrid > Pure,
How so..?
Why take more weaker skills, when if 3rd jobs get updated, which they will, the pureists will have even strong gun skills,
While you guys are practicing drilling, and the weaker, needles,

I understand more lk raising and rilling skills are attractive, but in the long run, to be the best, you need to be a higher level, or stronger.
Drilling and better accuracy/blocking won't help/acchieve that, [Drilling for quests, maybe.]but since gun skill are accurate anyways, you get more power, and lk boost only majorly affects your normal shot, which you won't be usuing nearly as much.

xpeaceboyx · 25 Mar 2008

Originally Posted by tomtom333555

True, But who's to say that 3rd job will NEVER be updated and/ or balanced..?

This WAS meant for a lion specifically but it applies the same for all types,

I beleive lucky 7 is a skill that allready raises luck for lions, in 1st or 2nd job, I forget,
Decreases the def..? Pfft, HV is considered gun defence, no the actual defence stat.

The needle skills are useless, 'Cause you didn't raise DA, you rose AC or LK, ..No lion raises DA, if you did why didn't you make a fox..?

Logically Hybrid > Pure,
How so..?
Why take more weaker skills, when if 3rd jobs get updated, which they will, the pureists will have even strong gun skills,
While you guys are practicing drilling, and the weaker, needles,

I understand more lk raising and rilling skills are attractive, but in the long run, to be the best, you need to be a higher level, or stronger.
Drilling and better accuracy/blocking won't help/acchieve that, [Drilling for quests, maybe.]but since gun skill are accurate anyways, you get more power, and lk boost only majorly affects your normal shot, which you won't be usuing nearly as much.

..........amen...amen brother. Dude, 3rd job pure skills that will come out are 99% sure going to give us pures the edge, or the bullet in this case.

Anchors · 25 Mar 2008

About the needle skills - the reason they're useless isn't because of lack of DA. My LK fox does just fine with SM (no PP or fan of knives). The reason a gunner outright cannot use this skill is because a lion can have only either bullets or throwing items equipped.

... which really sucks for the DA lion, incidentally, because power shot + butt plate + SS + SM + fan of knives + roulette shot would make for some really fun skill spam. ;x

In any case, scientist has more potential than cyber hunter right now. Job2 has only one set of additional skills coming (and we know a bit about them already, I think), but job3 hasn't had a single update aside from its implementation yet.

However, the prospect of missing out on landmine, aura of LK, sticky icky, and whatever else a lion might like out of the job2 fox skill tree might be too much to make up for at this time with just another mob skill (which can fail to cast even at mastery, I hear), which is why cyber hunter is generally considered the better option, currently.

If you're gonna stick with Trickster for at least another year, the pure job3 lion path might be worth investing in. I know I'll be around (barring the unexpected) at that time, so I made my first job3 lion a scientist. If not... cyber hunter is the more practical option for most players.

xpeaceboyx · 26 Mar 2008

Originally Posted by Anchors

About the needle skills - the reason they're useless isn't because of lack of DA. My LK fox does just fine with SM (no PP or fan of knives). The reason a gunner outright cannot use this skill is because a lion can have only either bullets or throwing items equipped.

... which really sucks for the DA lion, incidentally, because power shot + butt plate + SS + SM + fan of knives + roulette shot would make for some really fun skill spam. ;x

In any case, scientist has more potential than cyber hunter right now. Job2 has only one set of additional skills coming (and we know a bit about them already, I think), but job3 hasn't had a single update aside from its implementation yet.

However, the prospect of missing out on landmine, aura of LK, sticky icky, and whatever else a lion might like out of the job2 fox skill tree might be too much to make up for at this time with just another mob skill (which can fail to cast even at mastery, I hear), which is why cyber hunter is generally considered the better option, currently.

If you're gonna stick with Trickster for at least another year, the pure job3 lion path might be worth investing in. I know I'll be around (barring the unexpected) at that time, so I made my first job3 lion a scientist. If not... cyber hunter is the more practical option for most players.

Investment, I like that term. Deciding to be a pure is an investment that can maybe go good or bad. Probably good because 3rd jobs tend to be stronger than 2nd job hy.skills, Like bunbuns, dark mages, coons, and so on and so forth.You gotta know that a lion itself and 2nd job skills are a worthy adversary in gvg/pvp and training(GO SPAM KILL :d) and every one has seen that a hybrid has a limit right now. So...just leaves me to say, WHY WONT ANYONE GIVE THEIR OPINION ON WHAT 3RD JOB SKILLS THAT MAY COME OUT!?!?

CodyZzZ · 26 Mar 2008

Originally Posted by tomtom333555

True, But who's to say that 3rd job will NEVER be updated and/ or balanced..?

This WAS meant for a lion specifically but it applies the same for all types,

No it doesn't, each job has different benefits going hybrid or pure. Depending on playing style or how much time one wants to wait, it is not all the same. As of right now, lions probably have one of the worst pure skills out of all jobs.

I beleive lucky 7 is a skill that allready raises luck for lions, in 1st or 2nd job, I forget,
Decreases the def..? Pfft, HV is considered gun defence, no the actual defence stat.

Lucky seven is not aura of luck. They both increase LK, but aura of luck is only available for foxes/cyber hunters. Sticky icky is also a fox-only skill that decreases the enemies defense, which includes HV, LK and DP. I assume you probably never heard of it considering your level. -HV decreases their gun defense, -LK decreases their chance of dodging gun and magic, and -DP decrease their melee defense. In essence, Sticky icky decreases all of your enemy def (besides magic dmg) and makes them more prone to higher damage.

The needle skills are useless, 'Cause you didn't raise DA, you rose AC or LK, ..No lion raises DA, if you did why didn't you make a fox..?

Nobody said you have to get DA skills if you are a cyber hunter gunner.

Logically Hybrid > Pure,
How so..?

Scientist get berserk. Which misses and has a long cooldown. Cyber hunters get landmine, aura of luck and sticky icky. And again this (hybrid > pure) only applies to lions, do i need to explain further?

Why take more weaker skills, when if 3rd jobs get updated, which they will, the pureists will have even strong gun skills,

Thats why I said for people for doesn't have long term plan, go with cyber hunter. Because RIGHT NOW Cyber Hunters > Scientists. If you PVP or GVG'ed enough you will know what I mean.

While you guys are practicing drilling, and the weaker, needles,

I understand more lk raising and rilling skills are attractive, but in the long run, to be the best, you need to be a higher level, or stronger.

To be the best, one of the path is to have high LK. Without luck you cannot hit a fellow lion/sense/mage. As of right now, if a cyber hunter and scientist has the same stats, the cyber hunter will win in a 1 v 1 fight because a) he has more lk due to aura of luck and b) he has sticky icky which will decreases the defense of scientist (see above) and even c) he could drop landmines.

Drilling and better accuracy/blocking won't help/acchieve that, [Drilling for quests, maybe.]but since gun skill are accurate anyways, you get more power, and lk boost only majorly affects your normal shot, which you won't be usuing nearly as much.

Do you even know what skills scientists get? They have one that detects fox, which might be useful in some gvg/pvp instances, and a berserk skill, which is essentially a more powerful but less accurate shooting spree. It has a long cooldown, and is too unstable to be used in an actual fight.

It is true that scientists might get good skills in the future. Truth is, no one knows when, how and what. That is why, like i said a million times, RIGHT NOW cyber hunters are much more practical and better than scientists.

_________________

tomtom333555 · 26 Mar 2008

"Do you even know what skills scientists get? They have one that detects fox, which might be useful in some gvg/pvp instances, and a berserk skill, which is essentially a more powerful but less accurate shooting spree. It has a long cooldown, and is too unstable to be used in an actual fight."

Yes, I know.

"It is true that scientists might get good skills in the future. Truth is, no one knows when, how and what. That is why, like i said a million times, RIGHT NOW cyber hunters are much more practical and better than scientists"

I've said that allready.

"Nobody said you have to get DA skills if you are a cyber hunter gunner."

^- Nope, noone said that, but, correct me if I'm mistaken, 3rd job is a hybrid between fox and lion, and one of foxes key stats is DA, which is a hinderence at least.

"I assume you probably never heard of it considering your level. Cyber hunters get landmine, aura of luck and sticky icky. If you PVP or GVG'ed enough you will know what I mean."

^- Please do not assume I am noob from my lions level. That characters level is my first on fantasia, and level is irrelevent anyways, I would not enter a debate without getting my facts straight, I am not a simpleton, and as my sig also points out, I've been here for over a year, and I have experienced every tier [ High averge low] of the game,

Ok, so the sticky skill lowers hv [gun defence], but, would you take a 3rd job skill that's very strong, or on a support skill, which makes your ok-ish 2nd job skills slightly better.

...Now you may argue that our skills have low accuracy, but as I have also pointed out, at 2nd job we allready get a luck boosting skill, which kind of makes that point void.

You may also say that we have not enough skills to be of any use, but surely you realize that Ntreev have to update it, lest they wish to suffer flaming, quitting and unhappy players/ customers.
They also have to updated because the game is in an on-going develpment phase, and they can't make a new event or myshop update every time, and 3rd job skills are the only major point that needs to be balanced.

We might never agree, but it seems you are in doubt and trying to make up your mind yourslef, *looking at sig* So when 3rd job IS updated, You should re-open this subject,

Because, we are all in agreement, that the only reason hybrid is better, is because it's been given more skills, if this was balanced, and pure got a decent skill like hybrid has, people would re-think.

Note: Pure: When a person sacrifices vairety for raw power in the specific path that person chose
Hybird: When a person sacrifices the ability to be the best at anything, to enjoy both worlds to a certain extent.

It makes NO sense, NONE whatsoever, to make the person getting the best of both worlds stronger than the person who gave it up, because not only does that mean the hybrid has more variety, like intended, it also has more power, making it, as you can plainly see, qay too strong, and un-fair on the person who gave on variety to become the strongest, when they have been give the complete opposite,
It should be the hybrids giving up being the best, but they get more skills and power..?

^- Why it is so clear purists will be updated.

^^

Note: I don't mean to come out harsh, though I've noticed I do on this subject, for some reason,

Keep it friendly,

KzTxl7 · 26 Mar 2008

I just want to fix some flaws in your argument

^- Nope, noone said that, but, correct me if I'm mistaken, 3rd job is a hybrid between fox and lion, and one of foxes key stats is DA, which is a hinderence at least.

It not a hinderance. Heck you'll find more and more foxes going pure LK currently with less Pure DA foxes. Not only that, but by around level 200 you'll have about 50 base DA without adding any points into it and you can easily get more to about 80-90+ easily with addition equips without even going for DA. That and the skills you mainly get out of being a Cyber Hunter, you really don't need DA. Lions go Hybrid for Aura of Luck, Landmine, Sticky Icky and Gas Mask. Only one of those actually need DA for Damage but it also needs LK in the formula. So you can make up for the lack of DA with the insane LK from Aura of Luck.

Ok, so the sticky skill lowers hv [gun defence], but, would you take a 3rd job skill that's very strong, or on a support skill, which makes your ok-ish 2nd job skills slightly better.

As a Scientist, I can honestly say I'd rather have chosen Cyber Hunter, CURRENTLY (as we have no idea what the future is for Scientists). If you compare Beserk to Sticky Icky, Sticky Icky wins hands down. Beserks fails. I don't mean it sucks, I mean it fails, like when you first get Shooting Spree and it sometimes doesn't go off. In other words, it's unreliable. Sure in terms of damage on a single target: Double Shot > Beserk > Power Shot > Shooting Spree, but if it doesn't work, you just wasted time and MP. Sticky Icky reduces LK, HV, and DP. Mages and Senses have amazing LK nowadays, meaning you're going to miss, so you really want to reduce it so that you always hit, and that they miss YOU. Charms, dear lord with their HV, damaging them is just a complete pain, and it reduces their damage as they rely on HV for damage as well. (DP is only for Melee Lion and they benefit from the other 2 as well).

...Now you may argue that our skills have low accuracy, but as I have also pointed out, at 2nd job we allready get a luck boosting skill, which kind of makes that point void.

Actually it's first job, that Lions/Foxes get Lucky Seven. Sure its a Luck Booster, but if you get Hybrid, they an addition Luck Booster which means it becomes harder to hit them and they hit you easier.

tomtom333555 · 26 Mar 2008

Right, yup, of course, I agree,

...Like I've said, Hybrids pwn pure at the moment, I've said that alot

But I've also said alot why pure will be the stronger of the 2 and that it has to be updated, becuase pure means focussed on one, hybrid means spread out for a bit of both,

Want me to say it again,

^^ Just wait in patience, purists will have thier time...

...
Wait a minuite,

Kz?!
Lol, omg!

Hai!

You probably don't remeber me, out of that guild, Wisdon? I was PrinceGarfield? I was kicked for being in-active..? That was on my char that was haxxed,
You still at Wisdon..? Is everyone else?

Gosh,

I found someone from there! Yays!

CodyZzZ · 26 Mar 2008

I support that this is as an intellectual discussion with no intention of personal attack. None are taken by me and your arguments do not have that tone, and I hope mine aren't insulting either. I apologize for accusing you of your level earlier, I just think having experience with end-game content will give someone more credibility in their arguments. I believe I have this qualification as a end-game lion who has fought countless PVP and GVG (Katamari) battles.

In response to your criticism with regards to my choice of path, I am a high level (if you count 230 as high...) who is still at second job. My dilemma directly ties to our discussion which makes two statements.

1) Cyber Hunters are much much better now, I want to be Cyber...and have more LK, use Icky, use gas mask and use landmine.
BUT
2) No one knows what Scientists get. Since they suck so much now, what if they get really good pure gunner skills that Cybers will never get?

And that is why I'm still 2nd job, because I am waiting for that possibility of scientists getting a few good skills. If they dont, or If i feel their skills wont help me in a fight, I'll be cyber hunter.

You asked earlier for me to explain how lion hybrids are better. So I answered that as of right now for cybers are better. Then you agreed by saying you said it too. There might be a little bit of inconsistency there. But I'm assuming we are on the same page in terms of that.

I am no expert in other classes, but from fighting them I have acquired some experience. So to give you another example, imagine you are a buff that hates lions. Unless you are haxxed out, you will have little chance against a slightly haxxed lion. However buffs that go hybrid and get bunny's guard will give even the best lions the biggest headache ever (except if you are Ryushi, i hate you.) , thus reversing the situation. In this specific case Buff Hybrids > Pure.

Back to scientists, my point is that the future is unknown. NO ONE can tell whether one might be better or not, because there is absolutely no evidence. You are very confident that pure is going to be better, which deep within I want to agree with you (because I want to be a scientist when they get good skills and pwn Cybers) but there is no supporting evidence at all right now. You are merely making a claim of game content that does not exist, which is same as all the theoretical "what if I can make these skills" threads out there.

I also do not fully agree on your purist (fully focused) versus hybrid (best of both worlds) arguments. Just because skills are spread through two jobs does not necessarily make them better or worst. Right nao, 2nd job fox skills are better than 3rd job lion skills. It really depends on the skills and type of build. The series of fox skills have supported gunner and melee lions tremendously (aura, icky, landmine, gas mask.) It goes with lions so well that I almost want to say they could might as well be pure skills. And just because something is meant to be pure does not mean they are better. If lets say scientists get a skill that increases AC like crazy but decreases LK too, then is it necessarily better? It is obviously a "pure" skill and more powerful..but is it better?

As long as nothing is released in kTO or other more established versions of trickster, no one can ever fully conclude how eTO is going to be. How do you know that they WILL release "pure" gun skills for scientists? How can you be so certain? What if even the new released skills for purists somehow suck? It cannot be proven until it is actually released.

The other problem is time. How long can you wait? 1 month? 6 months? 1 year? 2 years? This is why i explained in my previous post that "for now those without a VERY long term plan will benefit significantly choosing cyber rather than scientist."

From my understanding here is where our arguments differ: You say that pures will be better when they get an update, but I say it is impossible to find out thus we dont know and we cannot make any conclusions about scientists in the future.

Therefore the smarter choice for those who want to pwn within the next few months should choose Cyber. Then there are those who are "hoping" (but not knowing) that scientists will eventually be better, thus they go pure. As for me, and maybe a few others out there, we decide to stick in the middle and wait for the right time.

TRlP · 26 Mar 2008

Originally Posted by tomtom333555

Why take more weaker skills, when if 3rd jobs get updated, which they will, the pureists will have even strong gun skills,
While you guys are practicing drilling, and the weaker, needles,

hmm... who said going hybrid means getting weaker skills? o.o" berserk may be strong when it hits (9k-13k?) but hey, if u have a good amount of lk (aura of luck will help you achieve that) landmine can also hit well over 10k with a much higher success rate. you say that going pure will make you the strongest of them all because you are focusing on your class. you want to wait for a strong ass skill to be released, but ... (sorta referring to cody's post) if u dont have the lk to even hit the person, it doesnt matter if u can do 20k or 100k. you. will. miss. going hybrid helps increase your lk and thus increase your dodge rate against fellow lions and mages.

you seem to think that going hybrid means actually 'being' a fox and a lion. no1 said going hybrid means u have to use fox skills such as stone strike or shuriken master or whatnot. lions go hybrid for icky, landmine, and aura of luck (as stated previously by many users). having various skills is fun, but it is not the main reason ppl go hybrid.

and as cody said, pure jobs may or may not getting better skills. hybrids will still own when it comes to lk and debuffs and what not >D (unless the scientist is packed with max comps on myshop items ._.)

tomtom333555 · 27 Mar 2008

"It makes NO sense, NONE whatsoever, to make the person getting the best of both worlds stronger than the person who gave it up, because not only does that mean the hybrid has more variety, like intended, it also has more power, making it, as you can plainly see, qay too strong, and un-fair on the person who gave on variety to become the strongest"

Meh, I kind of agree with all the posts here, it's obviously a matter of opinion,
But Ntreev knows this is a problem, adn when something is un-balanced, in any game, the staff/creators/etc will do what they can to balace it, it's just plain common sense,
you can't let one class clearly dominate the other, which seems to be the case,

I never said hybrids were both types, I was trying to say that the point of turning hybrid, is to get skills from the other job,

..And guys, don't keep repeating yourself, >_> , we know hybrids are better at the moment, my argument/focus/whatever/ is that it has to be updated, becuase as I've said, alot of times, Ntreev can't knowingly leave one of thier games un-fair, becuase it gives off a bad image, people flame and spam, and the people who are on the un-fair part of the deal will suffer, making them delete thier character to re-start, or possibly quit, sick of the game,

=/
Meh,

RealSkillzKillz · 27 Mar 2008

So far I've seen a lot of reocurring words describing Pure Lions: future, to-be, if, when, patience, eventually

Well here's what I've got to say. Grab a fricken pillow and get comfortable cause you've got a long wait ahead of you.

P.S. The wait might not even be worth it.

j0eL · 27 Mar 2008

By the time scientists get better skills, there'll be a myshop item to change from pure to hybrid or vice versa.

CodyZzZ · 28 Mar 2008

Originally Posted by RealSkillzKillz

Grab a fricken pillow and get comfortable cause you've got a long wait ahead of you.

Lol my pillow is getting stiffer by the second.

Originally Posted by j0eL

By the time scientists get better skills, there'll be a myshop item to change from pure to hybrid or vice versa.

I actually thought about that. That would make someone like me very very mad. :shock: